Life on Ten
Dr. Vanessa Walker and Angela Trapp discuss how to live your life to your fullest and various issues that may get in the way of living a Life on Ten.
Life on Ten
Why Lifting Women Shouldn’t Mean Lowering Men
A new year, a hard pivot: we talk frankly about why so many boys and men feel unseen, and how that vacuum gets filled by voices that promise strength but sell division. A Netflix story about a 13-year-old who kills a classmate sparked the conversation, but the thread runs through schools, social media, dating apps, and dinner tables. We trace how graduation gaps, higher male suicide rates, and manosphere influencers collide with real fears about purpose, status, and belonging.
We don’t buy the zero-sum story. Instead, we break down “toxic masculinity” as excess, not essence—how admirable traits like protection, leadership, and toughness go sideways when they harden into control and contempt. We share personal examples of what healthy masculinity looks like at home: the dad who fixes the leak, shows up with tenderness, and teaches by example; the mom who insists that kindness and curiosity are strengths, not liabilities. We also explore dating expectations—income, height, looks—and how algorithms and peer pressure narrow our choices. The fix isn’t shaming preferences; it’s widening filters and redefining value beyond paychecks and appearances.
Politics amplifies the rift by preying on scarcity thinking. When institutions spotlight people who were shut out for generations, some young men experience it as loss. Opportunists weaponize that pain. Our counter is validation without vilification: acknowledge male pain, protect women’s progress, and build a bigger tent where rights and dignity aren’t rationed. We offer practical steps for parents and mentors—normalize emotion, teach consent as mutual desire, cultivate digital literacy, and model repair after conflict—so boys can grow into men who are strong and kind at once.
If this resonates, share it with a friend, subscribe for more real talk, and leave a review with your take: what does healthy masculinity look like to you?
Hello and welcome to Life on 10. Happy New Year, everyone. Happy 2026. Happy New Year. It is Angela and of course my lovely co-host, Vanessa. Yay! It's my birthday too.
SPEAKER_03:Oh well, tomorrow. Today is we are actually recording on New Year's Eve. So literally, happy new year, everybody. And this will post before midnight. Okay. Happy New Year.
SPEAKER_00:You hear her, right, audience? It's up. It's post tonight. We are holding her to that.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. It's gonna happen. I'm getting ready to go on vacation. And so I am 100% going to post this before I leave to make sure that Angela is not harassing me for the next two weeks saying, get your shit done, Vanessa. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Alrighty. Okay. So that's fantastic. Tomorrow's your birthday. Tomorrow's my birthday. Happy birthday. Thank you.
SPEAKER_03:And you're gonna be spending your birthday in No, I'm actually gonna be here because we're not leaving for a few more days.
SPEAKER_00:But but still, I will be here. And then I will be then you will celebrate, yeah, the tell in or continuing to celebrate her birthday. Yes. In Disney World, her favorite, literally her favorite place in your world. Favorite place. Out of all the places you've gone to in your life, Disney World is your favorite place.
SPEAKER_03:I I mean, I don't know that it's my favorite. It brings me a considerable amount of joy. Like just a considerable amount of joy. And my experience at Disney World back in 2021 into 2022 literally changed the course of my life. So I I have a special place in my heart for Disney World. I will always have a special place in my heart.
SPEAKER_00:You need to reach out to them to do a commercial. I know, dude.
SPEAKER_03:I sent them, I sent them this like super long, heartfelt email explaining how they changed my life and blah blah in the middle of COVID. They affect you know crickets. I heard nothing back from them.
SPEAKER_00:So well, that sucks.
SPEAKER_03:But I still love them. So it's okay.
SPEAKER_00:Oh yeah. Okay. That sucks though. Okay, so we are so excited to be back. We know it's been a while. Um, we took a little break. We appreciate you um allowing us to take that break. And we know that you are so happy that we're back.
SPEAKER_03:I actually have people reaching out like, when's your next episode gonna drop? So we know there are those of you out here who've been waiting for us.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. I love it. We are not gonna disappoint. No, we're not gonna disappoint. So we're gonna jump right into the topic. And this is a topic that Vanessa reached out and said she um she has she's passionate about concern, I would say, as well. And so I'm going to hand it over to you, Vanessa, to introduce our topic.
SPEAKER_03:Yes. Okay. So I have just been, you know, we we digest or consume media, social media, TV, TV shows, right? All kinds of things. And Robert and I watched on Netflix that um show called Adolescence, which is uh a really good, well done um story about uh uh a young 13-year-old who kills a classmate.
SPEAKER_00:And he uh he won an Oscar.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I mean, it it was really heart watching this little boy suffer the way that he was suffering. And it's like you're then you're gonna go, Vanessa. Why do you feel bad about a little boy who killed a girl, right? And it's because I I feel bad because I feel like society is failing our little boys, our men. And you're gonna then go, well, Vanessa, you and Angela are like super feminists, and you're right. And I'm like, yeah, just because we want to support women, yes, doesn't mean we don't love the shit out of men. Heck no. I love men.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, I love my little boy. Angela loves her young man. Absolutely, right? 100%. Why can't we do both things? Exactly. Why do why? I always said that. It's like, why do we have to mail bash to lift women up? Correct. That's that's it's not necessary. It is not lift both up. It's not a competition.
SPEAKER_03:Correct, correct. And it's it's so so it got it just got me thinking about like watching that show. And then, you know, I also look at like the the literature, like the data that's coming out showing that our boys are not graduating college at the same rate as girls are. Um, they're not filling graduate school spots at the same rate as girls are. Um, there's a higher rate of suicide, but there's always been a higher rate of suicide among men. That's not new, but still, we I don't like that, right? We that's something we should look at and address.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:Um just all of this just research that is showing, and then the rise of what people call the manosphere. The Andrew Tate. Yes.
SPEAKER_00:Oh my gosh, I wish I had Jalen on the call.
SPEAKER_03:Right. I mean, it's it's these men that are that are supposedly the epitome of what a man should be, yet their version of what a man should be and their reality, like what they think it is, is incredibly misogynistic. And in my opinion, is the exact opposite of what I think of an ideal man. Like to me, men, like if I just I'm gonna like picture the ideal man, okay, it's somebody who, like the first and foremost thing I think of men as protectors. Like that is one of the things I feel about men. And the reason why is because I think about my father and I think about my husband, right? And they would lay down their life to protect me. And they have always told me that. And so being being a girl and knowing that her dad would do that for her, and same being a woman and married to another man, to a man. No, I'm not saying that women don't do that. It's just that not only do men feel that way, but then they also have the physical ability to protect. Right. Not all women do. Yes. Are there some bad badass women that could like beat the shit? Of course.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:But then there's little Angela here that's like 110 pounds soaking wet, right? And I don't know how much you weigh, I'm just saying. Like you're small.
SPEAKER_00:I weigh more than 110 pounds. Okay. Um, but you know what I mean. I feel I however, listen, audience, I've I would lay down my life for my son, and I will take anybody's life for my son. Absolutely. So I think but it would be harder to be harder to. It would be harder to. I'd have to do it with weapons, but I would do it without a thought.
SPEAKER_03:Exactly. No, but I think that's the issue. Like, I think I imagine that. So, yes, having men that are strong and and care and fierce, right? For the people they love. Yes. And then I also, you know, like in a me, am I putting in antiquated or old? Sure. But I also think um I think men care deeply and they love deeply, but they have not been given the space to carry and show those emotions, and it's hurting them. Men have been taught, you know, keep it down, men don't cry, bury it. From very little. From very, very young. Very young. Yep. And it's it's heartbreaking. You know, that there's no reason a man can't cry. There. And in fact, when I see a man cry, it it is so endearing to me. I don't sit there and go, look at that weak man. I think, wow, to me, that man seems even stronger. That man, because they have the ability to hold two things at once, they have the ability to be strong for their family while simultaneously, or for whatever it is, right? Letting the world know that it's okay to grieve in whatever way they're grieving. Because men have been default. They push that down and it goes to anger. So then what do we see? Of course, we have higher rates of murder from men. Right? I think all of this is based off of them suppressing their feminine side, right? What would be dictated as quote feminine qualities. They're not feminine qualities, it's just emotions.
SPEAKER_00:It's it.
SPEAKER_03:It's it. Women are not more emotional, we're just allowed to express our emotions. We were taught that from the very beginning.
SPEAKER_00:And men weren't. And and um most of our the majority of our school shooters are men. Or young men. Yeah. There's a reason for that. Absolutely. There's a reason for that. So why do you okay okay? I don't know a lot about Andrew Tate. What I do know, Tate, what I do know about him is conversations that I have with Jalen. And and I'm I'm kind of taking some of those conversations and remembering Jalen said it started out as he was saying things that how he drew his audience in. Yeah. Actually, practical, realistic, helpful things. Yeah. Like how to make money. And and he questioned um, not questioned what he, I guess he did. He was curious more about how to how to create wealth. And like, if this person is driving a Lamborghini, why can't I? Yeah. So that those were good things in a way like I'm worthy too. I am also worthy in the sense I can create that sort of abundance in my life. And so the talent that he has is that he would say these practical, realistic, helpful things, and then weave in the other pieces of that about women. Yeah. And and and uh you know what they in his perception were doing to men. Yeah. Stripping of them stripping them of their masculinity. Exactly. Exactly. And then he became very, very popular for that.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, because I think that tapped into the way a lot of men are feeling. Because I think that because we as a society have become so focused on ensuring that women are not, I'm not gonna say not oppressed, but like that it's you know, empowerment of women, right? Right. There's so much focus on empowering women that just like you said, the men are feeling like it is a shift in power from them, they're losing power and women are gaining power. When that's it's like the love of a child. When I had Selma, I thought I could never love another creature on this planet more than I loved her. And I was legitimately terrified as I was about to give birth to Salem. I I felt bad. I said, I'm bringing a baby into this world that I will never love as much as I love Selma. And I was heartbroken about it because I just thought it would be impossible. And the minute they placed him in my arms and I held him, I I never knew a heart could grow.
SPEAKER_00:Oh wow.
SPEAKER_03:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Wow.
SPEAKER_03:To enfold it all. And that's, I think, to me, women empowerment is not about taking power from men and giving it to women, it's about raising them up to the same level. Yes. That's all it is. It's giving them the same advancements, possibilities, benefit of the doubt, say all of that. That's what racism and social justice is all about. It is not about taking from someone and giving to someone else, it's just about allowing for everybody to show up and play at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:I think that also comes from a mindset of limited thinking, like that there's only so much power or there's only so much resources. And so then I need to hoard them. And if someone else is receiving that, then it's not going to be enough left over for me. Yeah. And and that's a mindset. Absolutely. That's a very limited, constricted mindset because I believe that there's infinite possibilities and and enough for everyone. It really is. I believe there's enough for everyone. That um scarcity mindset drives a lot of what's happening today in our in our in in our country and also in our world. Yeah. There's this limited amount of resources, limited amount of power. And so I have to hoard it, I have to protect it, um, and um, you know, secure it only for me and my people, exactly. My family. And that extends over to the sexes. Yeah. So now women are being lifted up. Yep. And that means that I, the man, am, you know, I'm diminished. Yeah. I'm being diminished. Yeah. And I have to say that in some ways, I can see how they can they feel that way. Yeah. Especially when I hear this thing about what do they say? Um, what is it? Male toxic, what is it?
SPEAKER_03:Uh, toxic masculinity.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, that's like, what the hell is that? So tell me about that.
SPEAKER_03:So, so, so that like the concept of toxic masculinity is take all of those, uh, all of those items that we are mentioning, like the things about when you think of what is a masculine man. Okay. So a masculine man is strong, a masculine man is rugged, a masculine man, you know, um, protects, and a masculine man leads, and a masculine man, right? Like those are all the things you think about a masculine man. But then take it to the next level of so that means that a masculine man is too aggressive, that a masculine man is a toxically masculine, like someone who is, quote, toxic masculinity takes the aggression too far.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Right? Takes the I'm gonna lead my partner into I'm going to control my partner. I'm going to um be a dictator, not a leader. I'm going you see what I'm saying, all of the things that are because there's too much of anything is a bad thing.
SPEAKER_00:Right, right.
SPEAKER_03:Being too much of a of a tough guy is a bad thing. Being just the right amount of tough guy is good, right? Like there's there's all things about it, but that's really what it came from. Um, I remember years ago, did you see that map that Gillette commercial? Which one? It was a Gillette commercial where they were showing men how to shave. And they were they were showing like the generations of like a dad teaching their son how to shave. Yes. And it was a very uplifting, it made me cry. It was a very uplifting because they were kind of showing like this is how you teach your your man, your son to be a boy, um, your boy to be a man. Yeah, you teach him how to do the right things, you teach him how to shave, you teach them, like you teach them these things, but you also teach them to respect women and to to cherish them or to cherish everybody, right? Right. Like it was this lovely play on on how I think what a lot of us feel men can be and always have been, it's just been driven, it's been taken way beyond. What is your what is your greatest concern for your son? My greatest concern is uh that so if left alone, right? If without the steering hand of Robert and I as we guide him through growth, if left alone to consume social media and various things because it's it's getting out of hand, that he could become somebody who feels like women are the enemy, that women owe him something, that women are the keepers of sex and are going to be the ones that he must take it from in order to be happy. That um that and that in that that love and sex and partnership isn't a partnership, it's a conquering because that is what these men are teaching, is that you have to conquer your women to get the only thing that they're good for, which is to provide you sex and companionship instead of what we know to be true, the true beauty that comes out of a partnership in which both of them gain benefit and growth and whatever. So there's just this one-sided thing where it turns women into the enemy. So that whole like that incel population. So they're celibate against their will. Yes. Right? All of that. Women are not the keeper of sex, women do not owe men sex. Women want to have sex with a man who respects them or a woman, whoever. I'm trying, I'm but we're focusing on men and women dynamics, so that's why I'm saying it this way. But they want to do that with somebody who respects them and cherishes them and thinks that they bring value to them and to their world. Then absolutely. So um I that's what I am a fearful of. So that's why Robert and I are so much into teaching him. Like you can be who you are, which is a very sweet and kind and caring boy.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:You don't have to play football to fit in. You don't have to be the strongest or the cutest boy out there. You just be you and you be kind.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And everything else will fall into place.
SPEAKER_00:100% believe that. Yeah. I 100% believe that. I am I'm I'm just I wonder if some of this is about placing blame on women because that the pot you know, a man, and I'm just saying not men, I'm just saying a man, um do have insecurities and and do feel like, or does feel like he is not up to par, whatever that looks like. Yeah. And so then I have this um, these people over here, right? These people over here, this community over here touting that women are the problem. Yeah. And so then I gravitate to that community because they're confirming something that I'm already thinking to myself. And it's also a community that's excusing or or supporting my thoughts in about women, and also it's like, oh, okay, it's not me. It's them over there. It's women, it's not about me, my individual, whatever, it's about the women. So I get to blame women instead of doing any internal self reflection. Exactly. It's so much easier to blame somebody else. It's it's a scapegoat. Absolutely. It's like a woman can be and are when we're talking about this particular topic, the scapegoat in all of this. Yeah. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03:You know, and it's um but society also has a huge role in this, right? Because we when when a in relationship studies have shown that when a woman out earns the man, there's a higher divorce rate. And that is really sad because it's it's just it is truly that is that like shines a light or holds a mirror up to what we're doing, and we are putting so much value on the economic what does a man bring to the table.
SPEAKER_00:You said protection. So I'll tell you, when I grew up, it was protection and also provider. Yeah. Yeah. That's what men do. Men are supposed to provide. That is what I was taught, observed, the messaging I received. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:My mom always made more than my father. So I I saw them both working and both providing for me.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So I don't know. It's but and and you know, the kids see obviously me being the one bringing in the money. Um, and but they see their father as a fierce protector of them of everything. Like when they hurt themselves, they don't go, mom. They call it dad. 100%. Wow. Yeah. So it's I I think that it's just like said, it's it's the way that we in movies and TV and everything, every portrayal, and and that's what they put held on to. These these people that are, you know, in this manosphere thing, they think that all women only want a man who's over six feet tall and makes you know over a hundred thousand dollars a year and this, that, and the other. And I'm like, you know how many men I know who are none of those things that are in happy relationships? Plenty.
SPEAKER_00:So no, that is in happy relationships, right?
SPEAKER_03:Are in happy relationships. Plenty of men that are not over six feet tall that don't make, you know what I mean? There are plenty of men that I know that are in relationships.
SPEAKER_00:And um have to be honest, there are women who will not talk to a man unless he fits that criteria. I mean, there are there, my son tells me it's like you have to have money. Um, and I tell him, well, I don't have to because he knows. Yeah, but anyway, I tell him to tell his friends that's not the woman you need to do. Exactly. That's not the woman you want. If that's what they're interested in, if she's only thinking about how much do you make and what purse, what design of purse can you buy me? And that's a shallow person. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It it and it goes all through. Like men have to always understand that there are more women out there than they think. It's just a lot of times they overlook them. Yeah, because me, I'm coming from the girl that was always overlooked.
SPEAKER_00:Because that person, that woman, is not fitting their criteria. Correct. So this is going both ways. It goes both ways, is what I'm saying.
SPEAKER_03:The women, the men require good looks and body. Yes. Women are saying, all right, if I'm and and that's what you'll see. The women that have the good, super good looks and super perfect body, they're like, well, I can hold out for another stratosphere of man. Oh, yeah. That's what that's what's what they're what they're thinking, supposedly. I don't know. I've never been that woman. Angela, you'll have to tell me.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and and um I will not confess.
SPEAKER_03:And then and and then, you know, men are gonna, you know, if if they're not in that realm, they gotta open up their criteria. It's like your filter. Exactly. Right. You gotta have your filter be wider.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. And I think it's it speaks to the point of what we're saying. It's it's not competition, and I don't want to say it's a right and wrong. I feel like it's it's a both things are happening, yeah. You know, at the same time. So there's some truth in the men who feel like women are very selective, and so then they get angry because of that. Yeah. And then there's some truth from the women as well. I yeah.
SPEAKER_03:It's I mean, I'm not saying it's easy, it's it's tough. Um, and I think as especially as women have become more self-sufficient and don't have to settle down to support themselves. Yes, because back in the day, right? It was like you get married or you're living with your parents. That's it. And so they're like, Well, I'm I don't want to live here anymore. I better find somebody. And they just strap themselves to the first man they could find that would take them, right? So that was how a lot of relations there are plenty of women that are on their own that are happily single. Oh, yeah, and will absolutely only come off the market for the perfect, what their need is.
SPEAKER_00:And I and I think women too, women do have more power in in the sense of they're able to take care of themselves. So they do not necessarily have to compromise. Yeah. Back in the day, women got married, like you said, and and they compromised, and they compromise sometimes to almost the the physical detriment or harm itself. Yeah. Because then they married somebody who was physically abusive, emotionally abusive, psychologically abusive, and they did not exit those marriages. Yeah. Because they didn't have a choice financially. Exactly.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. There's so much more choice now. And so I think for men, I mean, I'm gonna call out to women too. Yeah. Here's the deal. I I personally because I started out my life as being one of the girls that was never thought of as, you know, beautiful and thin and whatever. I've always just it's very challenging for me to find a man that I don't find attractive. I find most men attractive. To me, the thing that brought me to you or that that pulled me towards you was your kindness, how smart you were. I needed somebody to be smart. You had to. I had to have somebody who could be smart and hold conversations with me. Like those were the things that really attracted me to men. And so I think that women have to look at all of the aspects that a man will bring them and get past just the financial and physical. Because I will say, like, for example, you know, Robert, he's he's a stay-at-home dad, right? But he we had a bleak in our shower, and that man just tore that whole thing apart and he's fixing it and doing, you know, it's like that to me is like that's what I need.
SPEAKER_00:That's a turn on.
SPEAKER_03:That is, oh my God. I came home and he's like lifting drywall and tearing things apart, and I'm like, sweetie, yeah. I to me, that is so that like desire to fix and to do and to take care of. Yes. He didn't, I didn't ask him to do that. He did it because it needed to be done, right? And the fact that he has the ability to do that, the smarts, the strength, the you know, all the various parts of it that to do that. Now, I'm not saying that a woman couldn't do that. I'm just gonna say 100%, if I had been single, I would have paid somebody to do that. There's no way I would have done that. Oh, for sure. 100% no way I would have done that. And so um, there are things that men just do that are really that they're really good at. And so I think women just need to look at all the aspects of a man, not just how much money they make or you know, how good looking they look there, yeah. We're not all gonna marry Brad Pitt. No, it's just that's just not gonna happen. We're not all gonna marry Brad Pitt, and that's okay.
SPEAKER_00:And looks change throughout the world. Absolutely. So then, you know, if even if you're a man and you're marrying somebody for looks, uh are do you are you um like exchanging her? Yeah, exactly. Well, a lot of them do. Are you taking her, you know, and and exchanging her as the years go by for somebody a younger version? Yeah. That happens. I exactly. That does happen. So to wrap this up, what do what do we do? How do we how do we how do we show love and and how do we nurture um our boys? I mean, I have a young man right now, but I do think about that because I have I have I have nephews who are very young.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. I I don't that's a problem. I don't know that any of us have a so like a solution to this. I think it's a in, you know, it's a it's something that society needs to pay attention to. And we all need to make sure that like I think just and I hate going back to politics, guys, but I'm gonna just pivot quickly. When the Democratic Party lost, part of it was because so many young men, young white men especially, shifted their demographic typical voting pattern from the Democratic Party to Trump. And they contribute a lot of that shift because of the manosphere. Um, and what you know, and it was because of this concept of this feeling that they weren't being thought of at all. Right. And I and I'm gonna I'm gonna shocker, I'm gonna have to say I kind of agree. Because while we have been in the pursuit of those that have typically been the downtrodden, we have almost villainized the young white male. Yeah. And it's it's hard for me, it's hard for me to say that because I mean they still have so much advantage, right? So much, right? Like so much advantage. However, how did World War II happen? Because we went in, you know, World War I, they kicked the shit out of Germany. Yes, they did, and then they crapped on them. And that allowed for the rise of Hitler. That is how Hitler was born, was because we took a downtrodden group of people who just lost and we didn't help build them up. Right. And so they're gonna, that's what, that's what's happening. These boys think they've lost something. So they're going to glom on to the thing that is showing them the way to be strong.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_03:And the more verbal and vocal those people are, the more that they will win. So we have to, as a society, as the like voice of reason, open up our tent and offer them a home in a place that is inclusive, not just of minorities and women, et cetera.
SPEAKER_00:But I think you can do both. I can do both. It's necessary to do both things. Yeah. Um, I I just lost my thought. But I I think it's necessary to do both things because yes, you're 100% right. I agree with you. And it's balance. Yeah. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for the word balance. Yeah. There's a there's correction needed to happen. Yeah. And I would I would definitely be dishonest if I said, okay, now things are correct, because they are not. So there's still need to be balanced in the process. So I'm gonna go back to everyone can be lifted up. And some people, obviously, some people um needed to a greater lift than others, yeah, just to even get to where this this group is. Yeah. And I and have both of my hands up, um audience, you can see. So in my right hand, I'm just gonna say these are all the people, um, you know, the down, the downtrodden, those that did not have a voice, and and those who have suffered a lot um in America. So, yes, they have been lifted up and light was shined on them for a moment. Yeah, this is me. I know for a moment. A moment. A moment. A moment of and I feel like the world went crazy because light was shined on them for a moment. Yeah, and then what happened is a some manipulative people came into the mix and said, look, look what they're doing to you. Yeah, look what they're they're you know, they're all of your rights are being taken. Yeah, this is being taken from you. The the immigrants are taking this from you. This is being, and they played upon the fears, the frustrations, true, true fears, frustrations of a group of people. Yeah. And it was truth in that. I'm not saying there's not truth, it was truth in it. It's just that this other group mastermindfully manipulated the fears of that exactly others. Exactly. So, how do we solve this? How do we we have to identify and validate the pain that correct that they're feeling and they're feeling? We don't want to dismiss that validate that. Yeah, that's real. And it's also real what's happening over here to these other people. Exactly. So, how do we come together and and help each other to see that the only way we win is that we acknowledge the pain of of each other? Of each other. Yeah, that's how we win. Absolutely. And and I don't have to degrade and debase you for me to survive. Yeah, we can all survive and thrive in this, but the way we do not is attacking each other. Exactly. Agree. Yeah, okay. Well said, Angela. All right, I'm summed it up. Um well, wait a second, because I'm gonna go back on my um pedestal to preach in our next episode about how AI is a part of this whole thing dividing us. Yeah, okay. Live your life on 10. Um, bye bye.